CONTENTS:

CHAIKIN:: My guest is Gene Kranz. During the heady years of America's race to the moon, Kranz served as flight director for some of the key space missions, including the first moon landing, Apollo 11. Kranz was in the "hot seat" in mission control when the Apollo 13 mission was aborted by an explosion 200,000 miles from home, and he helped lead the effort to get the astronauts back to Earth safely. He's just written a book about his life in the space program; it's called Failure Is Not an Option.

KRANZ: Hey, Andy, it's great to be with you this morning.

THE COLD WARRIOR

CHAIKIN:: Gene, it's hard for us today to remember the mood back in the 1960s when this country was focused on beating the Russians to the moon. What was it like for you personally to be part of that?

KRANZ: Andy, I was a fighter pilot, and I grew up in the age of the Cold War. I think that it was probably one of the most challenging eras in American history. Because we were truly challenged, not only to be the leader of the free world, but to demonstrate that leadership. And the space program gave us that opportunity to demonstrate that we were capable of stepping up to the responsibilities of leadership in the world.

MANAGING THE RISKS OF SPACEFLIGHT

CHAIKIN:: Now, Gene, you were in there from the very beginning, from the early Mercury flights -- John Glenn's mission in Earth orbit. And then the Gemini missions, which helped pave the way for Apollo. You saw some pretty spectacular things from Mission Control, including Gemini 8's tumble in space. Did you ever wish that you were in space yourself? Did you ever wish that you were up there flying the mission instead of in Mission Control?

KRANZ: When I first joined in the space program, I really was envious of the astronauts, and really admired and respected the work they were doing, and the way they stepped up to the risk. But by the time that I'd gone through, probably, about a half dozen of the Mercury missions, I was really enjoying my job. And I saw that there's a new key role developing. And that role really was working in Mission Control, and providing the management of the risks that were associated with spaceflight.

DRAMA OF TWO MEN ON THE MOON

CHAIKIN:: Well, speaking of risks, nothing must have felt riskier or more like you had your necks out on a limb than when Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin made that first moon landing on Apollo 11 in July of 1969. And you were the flight director during the moon landing. Can you describe the kinds of feelings and thoughts that went through your mind as they were landing? There you were, running the show from Earth. But in reality, they were 240,000 miles away.

KRANZ: Yeah. And, Andy, that's one that I could talk all day on. I had always wanted to lead men in a great and desperate event. And I wanted the respect and companionship of what I felt was a warrior generation. And I found it in my young teams in Mission Control. The average age was about 26, and our battle was really to place an American flag on the moon for John F. Kennedy, and to a great extent, to win the initial battles of the Cold War.

CHAIKIN:: That's right. He said, "You've got a bunch of guys about to turn blue," and you were one of those guys! Do you remember how it felt when the realization actually sank in that they were on the moon safely?

SHOULD THEY STAY OR SHOULD THEY GO?

KRANZ: Andy, this was one of the times -- It's one of the things we never trained for. To me, at the instant of the landing, I had to get going on a series of STAY/NO STAY decisions. We had one at two minutes, eight minutes, and then two hours after landing. And at the instant of landing, the people in the viewing room started applauding and stomping their feet on the floor. And it came through into the control room in a muffled fashion. And the chill that I felt at that instant literally made me speechless, and I had a hard time getting going with the STAY/NO STAY decisions. Actually I pounded my arm so hard on the console that I broke my pencil, and had a bruise on it that stayed with me for days after. And then I finally broke through that emotional climax and got back to work again.

CHAIKIN:: And told them they were okay to stay on the surface.

KRANZ: That's affirmative.

CHAIKIN:: Was there ever a moment after that when you had a chance to go outside and look at the moon and kind of let it sink in?

KRANZ: It really sunk in two hours later, when I was walking over to the press conference with the public affairs officer. And there, for the first time, it really sunk in, "My God, today we actually put a man on the moon." And my team was really key to making that happen.

CHAIKIN:: God, what a time that must have been. Just an amazing era.

WE'RE NEVER GOING TO STRAND A CREW IN SPACE!

KRANZ: Andy, I believe that what was really key was that we had the right -- We had arrived at the right place at the right time in the business of spaceflight operations. The controllers had basically matured. The flight directors -- the chemistry of the flight directors we had on that mission was incredible. We had Glynn Lunney, who was one of the real pioneers of trajectory operations. And when it came time to tinker with the trajectories, he was the guy to do it. The remaining three flight directors -- myself, Milt Windler and Gerry Griffin -- were all fighter pilots. So we grew up living with risk as part of our business. And then when you add the training that we did in Mission Control, the hours and hours in preparation for a mission, and then, flying all the previous missions -- it's all summed up to the right people at the right place at the right time, and with the right chemistry that said, "We're never gonna leave a crew stranded in space. This bunch is coming home. And we're the people to make it happen."

THE APOLLO 13 RESCUE SINKS IN

CHAIKIN:: When you got the crew back, was there any kind of delayed reaction? Sometimes when you've been in a high-pressure situation, it doesn't hit you until later. Did you have that effect?

KRANZ: Yes, yes. In fact, in fact it lasted, I think, for probably about three to five days. It was when we looked back that we realized the kind of obstacles that we had to hurdle and get over. It was looking back at these decisions we made where we didn't hardly even have time to think about it, that turned out to be the right decisions. It was really recognizing how desperate it was in those final hours with this crew in this "refrigerator," hurtling back toward Earth when we were still trying to come up with a game plan for how we were going to do it.

CHAIKIN:: And the spacecraft was getting very cold for those guys.

KRANZ: Yeah. Yeah.

APOLLO 13, THE MOVIE

CHAIKIN:: America knows the story of Apollo 13 mostly because of the movie that was produced by Ron Howard and starred Tom Hanks. And of course you were portrayed in that movie by Ed Harris, who made the phrase "Failure is not an option" part of the language. How did you feel seeing yourself portrayed on the big screen?

KRANZ: It was somewhat humbling. But let me give a comment that if I were still working in Mission Control today, I would have offered Ed Harris a job as flight director. Because I believe he really clearly portrayed the flight director as the place where the buck stopped. You know, the flight director's job description is to take any actions needed for crew safety and mission success. And I liked the way Ed portrayed the role of the flight director. And I liked the way that the young controllers were portrayed, as the people who had to come up with the answers. They had to come up to the plate hour after hour, and every time they came up to the plate, hit the home run. I really liked the way they showed the young people of Mission Control.

CHAIKIN:: So the film seemed accurate to you.

KRANZ: I believe that the film was really a spectacular portrayal of the mission, the challenge, and the solutions that we had. There were a couple of problems they left out that were a bit too difficult really to portray. But the stuff they had in there was right, and it was right on track.

CHAIKIN:: So, I have to ask you, Gene, since the movie has come out, have you become a celebrity? Do people stop you on the street?

KRANZ: It's interesting. I especially -- I do a lot of traveling nowadays. And I run into young kids in the airport. And it seems this movie appealed to every generation. The generation that grew up in the '50s and '60s that made it happen, their children -- who really were more interested in other things during that era and now, all of a sudden, are looking back with nostalgia to what their parents did. And then the young kids -- I do a lot of grade-school sessions. And it's an absolute delight to work with these kids and see them turned on by something that's real.

TIME TO STOP CELEBRATING THE PAST

CHAIKIN:: We don't know when anybody is going to go back to the moon yet. Is that something that frustrates you?

KRANZ: Yeah. I think it's real frustrating. In fact, in the military we'd say we've been marching in place for almost 30 years. It's time to stop celebrating events of the past and start looking forward and making great events happen in the future.

CHAIKIN:: Did you feel at the time, back when Apollo was -- they were canceling some of the missions, you know, early in the -- in the progress of the missions, they were canceling missions and cutting the program short. Was that something that frustrated you at the time?

KRANZ: Yeah. I think it was, you know, as we got toward the final three missions I would sit in my office and almost brood over the short-term vision that as a nation that we had had. We had risen to probably one of the greatest challenges in history, put a man on the moon in the decade. We'd created incredible technologies. But what was most important, we'd created the teams, what I call the human factor. People who were energized by a mission. And these teams were capable of moving right on and doing anything America asked them to do in space. And what we did is we watched these teams disappear. We watched the great contractors -- the Grummans, the North Americans, the Lockheeds -- disappear from the horizon. I think that's really sad that as Americans we have destroyed much of this infrastructure that we had in the days when we went to the moon.

LIFE AFTER NASA

CHAIKIN:: Gene, you stayed at NASA after Apollo. You were involved in the Skylab missions, the space station in Earth orbit. And then, by the time the space shuttle began flying in the early '80s, you were actually running the whole flight operations division. You left NASA shortly after the Challenger disaster in 1986. Why did you decide to give up your life in the space program?

KRANZ: I really had an opportunity to get back into aviation, which was my first love. It was also time to move on. I had a great team in place in Mission Control, and it was time to give some of those young people I had, the chance to move into a role of leadership. And I believe that's part of the business. It was time to hand over the baton.

GHOST OF PAST GLORY: NASA THEN AND NOW

CHAIKIN:: Do you feel that NASA has changed since the Apollo days? Do you feel it's the same place that you remember?

KRANZ: No. In many ways we have the young people, we have the talent, we have the imagination, we have the technology. But I don't believe we have the leadership and the willingness to accept risk, to achieve great goals. I believe we need a long-term national commitment to explore the universe. And I believe this is an essential investment in the future of our nation -- and our beautiful, but environmentally challenged planet.

SAVING THE SPACE PROGRAM

CHAIKIN:: Is there any way that you would suggest making that happen?

KRANZ: I believe it's time to, first of all, get the American public involved in the space program. We need grass-roots endorsement by the American public to move back out in space. We need to revitalize NASA. We have to create the environment of the original Space Task Group we had in the '60s. We need some new top-level leadership, and we have to engage Congress.

CHAIKIN:: Gene, before we go, I wonder if there's any one memory that stands out for you in your entire space career, that you can share with us.

KRANZ: About two and a half years behind the Russians in space. And in those two and a half years, as a result of the leadership, the trust, the teamwork and the values, we demonstrated that what Americans can dream, Americans can do. And it was that intense feeling of pride in our nation that really stands out as…strongest in my memory.

CHAIKIN:: Gene, I want to thank you very much for being with us today on SPACE.com's "Voyage."

KRANZ: Okay, Andy, and thanks a lot, and it's always a pleasure to get together with you.

CHAIKIN:: Bye-bye.

KRANZ: Bye.

CHAIKIN:: My guest today has been Gene Kranz. He was a flight director during the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo years of America's space program, and he has a new book out called Failure is Not An Option. You're listening to SPACE.com's "Voyage."