Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Explain the unexplained...

Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby netarch » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:02 pm

FlatEarth wrote:Honestly, I have trouble believing anyone with half a brain would think there is a moon conspiracy (or a 9/11 conspiracy, for that matter). I'd like to think it's just a matter of time before Darwinian principles will eliminate them from the population. ;)

Is it just me, or are there others who are tempted by this statement? Ah, I feel Darwinian principles at work... :lol:


Sadly, I'm beginning to think Darwinian natural selection is no longer working for the human population. I just visited the Smithsonian with my evangelical in-laws, and we went to the Museum of Natural History. There's currently running a beautiful exhibit on Darwin, plus there was a whole wing dedicated to the origin of life and evolution over the past 3+ billion years it has existed on earth. You know where this is going...

...They proceeded to walk straight through the exhibit, without stopping, and went straight to the ocean life exhibit. They refused to acknowledge that the Darwin exhibit was even there. Unbelievable!

It challenged their world view. All the dinosaurs and other "prehistoric" life died in The Great Flood. Marine fossils were planted on mountain tops by the Devil in order to confuse man. Selective breeding of wolves to develop the hundreds of breeds of dogs is not micro-scale evolution. Continuing evolution of the virus which causes AIDS, or the bird flu and swine flu virii does not prove natural selection. "Tell us how evolution can create a chicken from a tree?"

I feel that humans can accomplish a great deal. We've cracked the atom. We've put men on the moon. But we can't yet figure out how to cure men of stupidity and gullibility. There will always be moon hoaxsters, flat earthers, and birthers. What evolutionary advantage does clinging to disproved myths provide to a human? Is it merely an adaptation of social structure - large groups of individuals working together gives them all a better chance of reproducing? If birth control is a sin, I guess that's the right evolutionary adaptation, isn't it?

FlatEarth, I'm afraid that Darwinian natural selection just may do the opposite: increase the percentage of gullible hoax-believers in the human population over time. We won't migrate to the stars - we'll just all worship at makeshift altars, because over time humans will have forgotten science because religion made it taboo... Remember that evolution is intelligence-agnostic. The be-all, end-all of evolution is to pass your genes along. If being dumb makes one a better procreator, then natural selection will of course select for it!
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Re: Moon Landings Faked?

Postby FlatEarth » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:52 pm

netarch, I agree with what you're saying, but don't judge all evangelicals by your in-laws. I know a few who are a bit more open minded. I do think this a good subject for a new thread...
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby tomnackid » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:33 pm

The clash between creationism and natural selection is not just a matter of evidence, it is a clash between an inherently non-scientific idea and a scientific one. If a watch requires a watchmaker, as the creationists are fond of quoting, then surely a watchmaker must require a watchmaker-maker, and a watchmaker-maker must require a watchmaker-maker-maker....and on and on. But try saying to a creationsist "OK, all life was created by god, who then created god?" After all, if they claim that life on Earth is far too complicated to come into existence with out "intelligent design" then obviously something as complex and powerful as a god must have an even greater "intelligent designer" behind it! Somehow I don't think evangelica christians will buy this line of reasoning.
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby Jazman1985 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:57 pm

"What evolutionary advantage does clinging to disproved myths provide to a human?" I don't think that it has any evolutionary advantages, nor does believing in God or believing in natural selection. Religion is far from a disproved myth, it is the antithesis of fact based science in that it takes faith to believe, not evidence, in fact, for me, this is one of the more beautiful things about my religion. While I will agree that it is strange to not believe that virus's mutate, as this is one of their most defining features, I have never seen concrete evidence of macro-evolution. Would seeing this evidence change my belief in creation? No, my faith is separated from the need for evidence. There is just as great a propensity for people that are non-believers to reproduce without regard or to do nothing for the advancement of humanity, just as the opposite is true.
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby origin » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:09 pm

Jazman1985 wrote:"What evolutionary advantage does clinging to disproved myths provide to a human?" I don't think that it has any evolutionary advantages, nor does believing in God or believing in natural selection. Religion is far from a disproved myth, it is the antithesis of fact based science in that it takes faith to believe, not evidence, in fact, for me, this is one of the more beautiful things about my religion. While I will agree that it is strange to not believe that virus's mutate, as this is one of their most defining features, I have never seen concrete evidence of macro-evolution. Would seeing this evidence change my belief in creation? No, my faith is separated from the need for evidence. There is just as great a propensity for people that are non-believers to reproduce without regard or to do nothing for the advancement of humanity, just as the opposite is true.


I think that religion is a great evolutionary advantage, or at least was. It is a wonderful unifying factor that can go beyond the family clan and small group. I would think that early people that had a unifying purpose of religion would tend to dominate smaller groups that were non religious.

If I had concrete evidence that proved a belief I held is incorrect, I would assume that I must have misinterpreted or not properly understood that belief - I think it is rather odd that you would ignore concrete evidence and continue with your beliefs. With that kind of attitude the catholic church would still believe that the sun revolves around the earth!
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby drwayne » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:18 pm

"All the dinosaurs and other "prehistoric" life died in The Great Flood"

I got hoodwinked into going to a creationist park some years ago where they stated that
the dinosaurs were taken on the Ark.

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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby ZenGalacticore » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:05 pm

Yeah but you get in free at the creationist amusement park if you come with your head in a bucket of sand. :lol:
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby netarch » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:38 pm

Just a followup:

Sorry guys - I've been having trouble with my Internet connection. I'm accessing the board from my boat via WiFi in a marina on the east coast, and it's slow as heck! This thread was actually supposed to be a response to the Moon Landings Faked? thread.

That being said, if MeteorWayne or one of the other moderators could move it - unless it takes on a life of its own...

To continue, I've become very, very weary over the last few months listening to all the hype about the political left and right (fodder for the politics thread?), and have become increasing dismayed over the tone of public discourse in the US. We're all dissatisfied with how the new millenium is turning out - except, perhaps for the rich?, and we're looking for someone to blame. Fox News, the "entertainment" network, has successfully tapped into that angst. However, rather than looking at what eight years of neglect have done to us, they point everyone towards the current guy in the saddle as the source for all our woes... Heck - they're even trying to recruit the head of Fox News, Roger Ailes, to run for president on the Republican ticket.

I guess this post can be deleted, but the thread itself should be moved to Moon Landings Faked.
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby MeteorWayne » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:28 am

There have been a number of topic splits trying to keep the Moon Landings faked thread on topic. First was the split for the doctored photo discussion, then this which is not really related to either subject but is more general in nature.
"Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight?"
"The same thing we do every night, Pinky... try to take over the world!"
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby FlatEarth » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:07 pm

netarch wrote:Just a followup:

Sorry guys - I've been having trouble with my Internet connection. I'm accessing the board from my boat via WiFi in a marina on the east coast, and it's slow as heck! This thread was actually supposed to be a response to the Moon Landings Faked? thread.

That being said, if MeteorWayne or one of the other moderators could move it - unless it takes on a life of its own...

...I guess this post can be deleted, but the thread itself should be moved to Moon Landings Faked.

You don't happen to have any dinos on that boat, do you? ;)

netarch, originally I thought you started a new thread based on my suggestion, but apparently that is not the case. Anywho, I think this is a good discussion point that deserves a new thread.

Not that long ago Nat Geo ran a very interesting show on mapping our origins called "The Human Family Tree". Basically the conclusion was that all of us are descendants of a small specific group of Africans (who, by the way, still remain there). Here's a link to the site for more info:
https://genographic.nationalgeographic. ... index.html

The part I found so interesting was how the environment drove various groups to change over time and develop skills and attributes that would not have occurred otherwise. There was a kind of mini-evolution that happened in those 60,000 years. I don't mean to suggest the evolution was necessarily an advancement that makes the original group lesser in any way, but certain skills were definitely developed that led to the civilization and technology we have today.

The point I'm making is that it seems we are destined to evolve, regardless of the circumstances. A society that doesn't require effort to survive and prosper will evolve a population that is less capable than previous generations. This is what I fear could be our fate. Instead of progress, we will see the opposite. There are many influences that will play a major role, including on the positive side, the amazing growth of information technology. Where will it take us?
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby netarch » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:53 pm

And then we have mistakes in science - known as "bad science" - like what's happened with "Ardi". In the rush to put some sensationalism together to promote science (and themselves, in the process!), the people involved with that one got in over their heads in their zeal to present their information to the public, all against the rest of the paleoanthropological community's advice - and it came back to bite them. It actually set science (or the view of science by the average person) back a step or two.

Now, the Creationists and Intelligent Designists (well, the Dover PA court case proved them one and the same, didn't it?) are all over that mistake and trumpeting "See - that prove's our point - evolution is wrong!"

Grrrr......
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby Jazman1985 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:09 pm

Origin-"If I had concrete evidence that proved a belief I held is incorrect, I would assume that I must have misinterpreted or not properly understood that belief - I think it is rather odd that you would ignore concrete evidence and continue with your beliefs. With that kind of attitude the catholic church would still believe that the sun revolves around the earth!"

Considering that I have never observed concrete evidence against a belief that I hold(It's quite impossible, really), it's a difficult thing to know for sure about myself, but I'm confident that my faiths could hold up regardless of what I hear. Unfortunately, the Catholic church chose to determine beliefs like the earth being the center of the universe without any mention of this in the Bible, although it's certainly not the only thing they made up to keep their hold on power. The fact is, that there is nothing scientifically proven to contradict anything in my religion. The expansion of the Universe, links in genetics, geologic history. All of these can only extrapolate the time and processes that came before. The evolutionary theory, the big bang theory, are only theories, meant to interpret the way that people believe things to have happened based upon facts, they are not the facts themselves. So I have not had to reject any scientific evidence, only theories/beliefs/ideas.

Dr. Wayne-"I got hoodwinked into going to a creationist park some years ago where they stated that
the dinosaurs were taken on the Ark."

A common belief in my religious circles is that the dinosaurs where carried onto the ark as eggs, diminishing the need for food, space etc... As hard as I try, it's difficult for me to make the size of the ark work even then. It's a matter of believing it was a miracle, beyond human reason or ability. Being able to prove that the ark could carry all the animals is a trivial exercise and does nothing for anyone's faith, it's the same with all the nutcases that have been claiming to find the ark for the last 50 years, it's a simple matter of faith to believe without having to see it.
Out of curiosity, where was this creationist park? Was it simply Bible story exhibits or did they attempt to prove creation?


Dealing with hoax-believers, especially moon hoax believers, it must take a pretty poor idea of science to be unaware of the amazing advances in both mechanics and electronics we have made in only the last 100 years. We went from building the first airplane/cheap car at the beginning of the century to creating a nuclear explosion, to being able to travel halfway around the world in 16 hours in a single flight and all these things are considered an everyday, ordinary experience. Seeing these things, I don't see why it wouldn't be certainly within our grasp to put someone on the moon. Even if we couldn't, do people not understand that humans are placed into space frequently, and considering 2 non-government flights have placed people in space, if only briefly, should show that we did indeed do it 40 years ago.
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby origin » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:17 am

Jazman1985 wrote:Considering that I have never observed concrete evidence against a belief that I hold(It's quite impossible, really), it's a difficult thing to know for sure about myself, but I'm confident that my faiths could hold up regardless of what I hear.


I was responding to this statement you made:
"I have never seen concrete evidence of macro-evolution. Would seeing this evidence change my belief in creation?" So I was responding to your declaration that even with concrete evidence you would not change your belief.

Unfortunately, the Catholic church chose to determine beliefs like the earth being the center of the universe without any mention of this in the Bible, although it's certainly not the only thing they made up to keep their hold on power.


Well I think there is a clear implication in the bible that we were the center of the universe. God made the earth and then the rest of the universe - it is not surprising to assume he didn't make it and then stick it off in some remote corner of the universe. Many beliefs and traditions in the Christian religion have no clear biblical reference. Such as making the sabath on the first day of the week instead of the 7th day as instructed by the 10 commandments. I know that christian hold that sunday should be the holy day because of the resurection, but there is no scriptural basis for this. Passover is not celebrated which is defying gods decree. Slavery is thought to be immoral where there is no scripture that states that. Women are permitted to speak in church which is defying scripture - the list goes on and on. My point is as a religious person (I assume you are) you should not cast stones at other religions.

The fact is, that there is nothing scientifically proven to contradict anything in my religion.

Well, there is that whole flood thing which is scientifically impossible.

I on the other hand can cast stones because I don't believe there is a God, so I am going to hell and so should be allowed a little lattitude considering my future. :D
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby mabus » Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:17 am

Jazman1985 wrote: The evolutionary theory, the big bang theory, are only theories, meant to interpret the way that people believe things to have happened based upon facts, they are not the facts themselves. So I have not had to reject any scientific evidence, only theories/beliefs/ideas.


Hold on a sec here, this is wrong.

The general public (I do not nessecarily mean you personally) is woefully uneducated as to the meaning of the definition and usage of the term "Scientific Theory". I would agree with you that in common english the term "theory" is merely a personal belief or opinion which is of little account. The usage of the word theory within a scientific context is entirely different however. Within a scientific context, the term theory means something entirely different, and while the two words may look and be spelled the same, they mean entirely different things and should not be confused.

The United States National Academy of Sciences explains the difference this way;

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena, [5]

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.[6]


The difficulty (and this is especially true within the Creationist community, which, respectfully, is largely scientfically illiterate) is when people assume that the common usage of the term theory and the use of the technical term scientific theory mean the same thing. They do not.

A scientific theory is a scale model of a known phenomenon (like gravity for example) which models the phenomenon in exacting steps, stringing together measured and observed data into a functioning descriptive replica of the phenomenon. Far from simply modeling the phenomenon, a scientific theory must go further to meet the definition, and actually be falsifiably predictive. That is to say, the functioning model must be so exacting, that it must be able to literally predict future observations which are testable and (if the model is wrong) falsifiable (can be shown to be false through experimentation).

The theory of evolution is no more "just a theory" than the theory of gravity is "just a theory". I'm quite certain you'd see how ridiculous it would be to claim that gravity is "just a theory", but unfortunately because of the lack of understanding of science within creationist communities, many feel entirely justified to dismiss evolution in precisely this way. We get similar "it's only a theory" comments about for example as you did above, the Big Bang. The Big Bang is not "only a theory", but rather a fact. The theory explains how it happened, it models the process.

Wikipedia expands on this idea by demonstrating two examples of how scientific theories went on to model known phenomenon in testable ways.

As an example of the use of assumptions to formulate a theory, consider how Albert Einstein put forth his Special Theory of Relativity. He took two phenomena that had been observed — that the "addition of velocities" is valid (Galilean transformation), and that light did not appear to have an "addition of velocities" (Michelson-Morley experiment). He assumed both observations to be correct, and formulated his theory, based on these assumptions, by simply altering the Galilean transformation to accommodate the lack of addition of velocities with regard to the speed of light. The model created in his theory is, therefore, based on the assumption that light maintains a constant velocity (or more commonly: the speed of light is a constant).


Wikipedia expands on this concept of a scientific theory being a MODEL of reality.

An example of how theories are models can be seen from theories on the planetary system. The Greeks formulated theories, which the astronomer Ptolemy recorded. In Ptolemy's planetary model, the earth was at the center, the planets and the sun made circular orbits around the earth, and the stars were on a sphere outside of the orbits of the planet and the earth. Retrograde motion of the planets was explained by smaller circular orbits of individual planets. This could be illustrated as a model, and could even be built into a literal model. Mathematical calculations could be made that predicted, to a great degree of accuracy, where the planets would be. His model of the planetary system survived for over 1500 years until the time of Copernicus. So one can see that a theory is a "model of reality" that explains certain scientific facts.


Wikipedia continues to expand on the idea of a scientific theory being literally a scale representation, a literal MODEL of reality.

Central to the nature of models, from general models to scale models, is the employment of representation (literally, "re-presentation") to describe particular aspects of a phenomenon or the manner of interaction among a set of phenomena. For instance, a scale model of a house or of a solar system is clearly not an actual house or an actual solar system; the aspects of an actual house or an actual solar system represented in a scale model are, only in certain limited ways, representative of the actual entity. In most ways that matter, the scale model of a house is not a house. Several commentators (e.g., Reese & Overton 1970; Lerner, 1998; Lerner & Teti, 2005, in the context of modeling human behavior) have stated that the important difference between theories and models is that the first is explanatory as well as descriptive, while the second is only descriptive (although still predictive in a more limited sense). General models and theories, according to philosopher Stephen Pepper (1948)—who also distinguishes between theories and models—are predicated on a "root" metaphor that constrains how scientists theorize and model a phenomenon and thus arrive at testable hypotheses.


The idea of testable hypotheses is crucial to the classification of something as a scientific theory as per Popper's ideas of falsification.

An apparently scientific argument is said to be not even wrong if it is based on assumptions that are known to be incorrect, or alternatively, theories which cannot possibly be falsified or used to predict anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong

Further expanding on the idea of falsification, the article explains that if the theory makes no falsifiable predictions it is by definition not a scientific theory

The defining characteristic of a scientific theory is that it makes falsifiable or testable predictions. The relevance and specificity of those predictions determine how potentially useful the theory is. A would-be theory that makes no predictions that can be observed is not a useful theory. Predictions not sufficiently specific to be tested are similarly not useful. In both cases, the term "theory" is inapplicable.


It continues on the theme of a scientific theory as a predictive "Model" of reality which makes falsifiable predictions.

(Scientifici) Theories are mostly constructed to explain, predict, and to master phenomena (e.g., inanimate things, events, or behavior of animals). A scientific theory can be thought of as a model of reality, and its statements as axioms of some axiomatic system. The aim of this construction is to create a formal system for which reality is the only model. The world is an interpretation (or model) of such scientific theories, only insofar as the sciences are true


Note again, a scientific theory is not a guess, or a belief, or an idea, it is a scientific model of the way reality functions.

The defining characteristic of a scientific theory is that it makes falsifiable or testable predictions. The relevance and specificity of those predictions determine how potentially useful the theory is. A would-be theory that makes no predictions that can be observed is not a useful theory. Predictions not sufficiently specific to be tested are similarly not useful. In both cases, the term "theory" is inapplicable.


Let's recap;

A scientific theory is NOT the same as a common usage of the term theory. A scientific theory is a descriptive model, a scale replica of a phenomenon which has predictive powers (if it does not make falsifiable predictions it is not a scientific theory). Falsifiable predictions are a pre-requisite for it being a scientific theory. Said another way, If the scientific theory does not make predictions as a nessecary outcome of the model, which can be experimentally falsified, it is not considered a scientific theory. The more falsifiable predictions a scientific theory makes, and the more facts and observations it can predictively explain, the more successful the scientific theory becomes.

A theory is DIFFERENT from a fact. A theory explains how a known phenomenon works by stringing together many facts into a consistent model. The theory of gravity models how gravity works, it does not "guess" that maybe gravity exists. We know gravity exists, the theory of gravity simply models how it works. Similarly, evolution is an observed fact and the theory of evolution explains how it works.

It should be noted that the Theory of evolution is by far, one of the most successful and oft tested theories in all of science. The only scientific theory more successful is possibly quantum mechanics.

All quotes from -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
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Now, hold on there!

Postby netarch » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:10 pm

origin wrote:Well I think there is a clear implication in the bible that we were the center of the universe. God made the earth and then the rest of the universe - it is not surprising to assume he didn't make it and then stick it off in some remote corner of the universe. Many beliefs and traditions in the Christian religion have no clear biblical reference. Such as making the sabath on the first day of the week instead of the 7th day as instructed by the 10 commandments. I know that christian hold that sunday should be the holy day because of the resurection, but there is no scriptural basis for this. Passover is not celebrated which is defying gods decree. Slavery is thought to be immoral where there is no scripture that states that. Women are permitted to speak in church which is defying scripture - the list goes on and on. My point is as a religious person (I assume you are) you should not cast stones at other religions.

...snip...

I on the other hand can cast stones because I don't believe there is a God, so I am going to hell and so should be allowed a little lattitude considering my future. :D


Now hold on there, origin! :D

Being a non-believer, that statement should read The Christian Bibles say God made the earth and then the rest of the universe - it is not surprising to assume he didn't make it and then stick it off in some remote corner of the universe.

Be careful there, or someone may accuse you of contradicting yourself! And if you're not a believer, how can you end up in a place you don't believe in?

I guess one also has to look at the fact that Christians aren't happy with The Bible - else there wouldn't be a Catholic Bible, a King James Bible, a New International Version Bible, the New American Standard Version, the New King James Version Bible, the Revised Standard Version Bible, the New Revised Standard Version Bible, The Living Bible, the New Century Version Bible, etc. The One True Word, eh?

I find it funny how many evangelical offshoot denomination all trace their roots directly back to Christ, conveniently skipping that they all basically split off from one denomination at one time or another.
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Re: Now, hold on there!

Postby esokujo » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:24 am

I guess one also has to look at the fact that Christians aren't happy with The Bible - else there wouldn't be a Catholic Bible, a King James Bible, a New International Version Bible, the New American Standard Version, the New King James Version Bible, the Revised Standard Version Bible, the New Revised Standard Version Bible, The Living Bible, the New Century Version Bible, etc. The One True Word, eh?

I find it funny how many evangelical offshoot denomination all trace their roots directly back to Christ, conveniently skipping that they all basically split off from one denomination at one time or another.


I wouldn't say that Christians aren't happy with the Bible given what you've stated. The Catholic Bible, if I remember correctly contains the Pseudopigrapha and Apocrypha, neither of which are contained in most other Christian Bibles. As for the rest of the versions you stated, they are merely different translations, differing in the manuscripts they were translated from. Others differ as some try to be more literal in translation (KJV, NKJV, etc) while others try to convert idioms to present language for ease of understanding (NIV), and still others (Living Bible, The Message, etc) try to make the text easy to read by putting the ideas into common language. I would say that the fact that there are multiple translations lends to the idea that Christians are wanting to get as close as possible to what the original manuscripts stated, while at the same time making it easier to read/understand.
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby CalliArcale » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:33 am

It gets better. You list a whole lot of different translations of the Bible as if they are fundamentally different, but they're not. Okay, so the Catholics have a few more books than the Protestants, but other than that, they're basically the same. Slightly different wording, but they all come from the same source material -- a canon of Scripture agreed upon by early church authorities (and by "early" I mean 4th-5th Century, so, long after any of the actual texts were written). Prior to that, there was considerable disagreement about which texts were actually appropriate to accept as holy writ. All of the Bibles you list have four gospels, for instance. There were quite a few more than four gospels penned, and many of the really early churches used them instead or in addition to the ones we're familiar with today. Some of them have survived to the present day, either as complete or fragmentary texts, and they present very different pictures.

I find it funny how many evangelical offshoot denomination all trace their roots directly back to Christ, conveniently skipping that they all basically split off from one denomination at one time or another.


It shouldn't be surprising. Some of the books of the (canonical) New Testament attest to that sort of thing happening even during the life of the Apostle Paul.

It is fascinating to trace the various schisms that create the "family tree" (if you will) of modern Christianity. It is somewhat more sobering to look at the branches which essentially got pruned along the way.
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby abq_farside » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:58 pm

mabus wrote:....
A theory is DIFFERENT from a fact. A theory explains how a known phenomenon works by stringing together many facts into a consistent model. The theory of gravity models how gravity works, it does not "guess" that maybe gravity exists. We know gravity exists, the theory of gravity simply models how it works. Similarly, evolution is an observed fact and the theory of evolution explains how it works.

It should be noted that the Theory of evolution is by far, one of the most successful and oft tested theories in all of science. The only scientific theory more successful is possibly quantum mechanics.

All quotes from -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory


Nice post if lengthy.
The biggest pet peeve of mine when during the quest to disprove the science behind evolution, they use the phrase "only a theory" without really knowing exactly what they are saying. For me, that almost makes anything else they say irrelevant.
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby drwayne » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:35 pm

Theory tangent:

One pet peeve for me are those that have some idea they thought up in the shower one day,
and they proclaim, "I have a theory", like the fellow that had a "theory" about kilometer long
worms on Mars.

I think this mis-appropriation of the term theory in part explains how some can use the word
to belittle something they don't approve of, like,agree with,understand.
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Re: Darwin, Creationism, and hoax believers

Postby netarch » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:24 pm

CalliArcale wrote:It gets better. You list a whole lot of different translations of the Bible as if they are fundamentally different, but they're not. Okay, so the Catholics have a few more books than the Protestants, but other than that, they're basically the same. Slightly different wording, but they all come from the same source material -- a canon of Scripture agreed upon by early church authorities (and by "early" I mean 4th-5th Century, so, long after any of the actual texts were written). Prior to that, there was considerable disagreement about which texts were actually appropriate to accept as holy writ. All of the Bibles you list have four gospels, for instance. There were quite a few more than four gospels penned, and many of the really early churches used them instead or in addition to the ones we're familiar with today. Some of them have survived to the present day, either as complete or fragmentary texts, and they present very different pictures.


Calli, I know where you're coming from, but my point was really that which version is truly the Divine Word of God? Are the original texts the Divine Word of God? Is the first 4th-5th century compilation the Divine Word of God? The layman might say the 13th century Latin version as approved by the Catholic Church? The King James translation? Heck, we all know that until the famous Ecumenical of Nicea in 325A.D., Christians couldn't even agree on whether Christ was merely human, or the Divine Son of God. Well, I take that back - the average Christian follower (not theologian) doesn't even know there was ever any controversy. And we're supposed to believe that the Bible as it exists today is the Divine Word of God? How about the Old Testament?

And the Koran? We can't even get the Bible straight, and we're supposed to pass judgment on the Koran as the Final Revelation of God?

Before we go too far astray from the thread, back to the original premise: conspiracy theorists, by and large, are no different than Christian, Jewish or Muslim Fundamentalists: they take their untestable beliefs on faith. They require no proof (except for us to try to prove there is no God). There are no testable theories. If you propose one, not only do they continue to move the goalposts - they eliminate the goalposts! To them, the game is already decided, and they're basking (or wailing) in the post-game celebrations (or navel contemplating)!

In fact, the only real difference I can see is that a faithful believer puts ultimate trust in the veracity of their beliefs, whereas the conspiracy theorists trusts only that they can put no trust whatsoever in the government, the banking system, or whomever.
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