Space/Interstellar Travel

[wolvieb]

I'm just curious, I just read a few articles, and I noticed that they all mention that scientists and astro-engineers are trying to move away from rocket/matter propulsion systems. Yet it seamed like every idea they're coming up with was a propulsion system, even indirectly. The Anti-hydrogen Kite propulsion system is still a matter propulsion system no matter how you look at it. You are still requiring fuel. Then I thought, it isn't propulsion that is required, its that wonderful shortcut through space. Yes a wormhole. Imagine for a moment (bear with me,) you're walking through a field, grass is chest high, it's rather slow going, virtually swimming through the grass. What happens if you ran a lawn mower through that given path you are taking? You move one heck of a lot faster. The way I see it.... Matter is everywhere. Here on earth, out in space. When we think nothing is occupying a location, that isn't really true. Air molecules occupy that space or location. When we walk, we are basically walking through Air. Granted outer space is a vaccum, however, is it entirely possible that even though we can't see it, isn't matter there? Just in less minute amounts. Doesn't light itself constitute as matter? What I'm saying, is if we were to travel through all that grass wouldn't it be easier to cut it down first? Or go through it? Isn't it perhaps easier to accelerate the particles in front of you out of the way, and move through the clear path? Kinda like Nascar, one car rides the others bumper, and the front car is cutting through the wind, making the second car get a burst of speed when it gets out from behind the first? I may be wrong, I just have a high school education, but I do ponder science a great deal. Ever since the age of 13 the stars intrigued me. If there is someone out there that can answer these questions. Perhaps a wormhole is more feasible that we first imagined....

[MeteorWayne]

The problem is that wormholes don't exist...

[OmegaOm]

The matter that is in space, at least in our solar system is negligible, when it comes to friction on a space craft. The planets ate up most of it eons ago. If there were sufficient matter to slow down a space-craft in space then the space craft would suffer catastrophic damage when impacting this matter at space traveling speeds. Regardless, if we were to design a space ship that would ferry passengers to the outer solar system and beyond, we would need some kind of magnetic defector shield because even 1 micro meteorite could destroy or disable the ship. This still would not help any with space velocity. The distances to the stars are vast. Voyager 1 is our fastest space craft. It is traveling at an astounding 63,000 km/h. Even at this speed it would take Voyager 1 around 75,000 years to get to the nearest star, Proxima Centauri, at a distance of 4.2 light years.

Light also would have a negligible effect. Although light is energy and energy effects motion, the amount of energy a space craft as large as a house would receive from light would probably be enough to charge a few 12 volt batteries. This solar power would decrease quickly with the inverse square of the distance from the sun. Solar Sails are possible. These are huge arrays, that capture the particles in the solar wind, thus propelling the space-craft outward. This still would decrease in power with the inverse square of distance from the sun. The speed a solar sail can give a space craft is also negligible to interstellar travel.

All said and done. It is impossible to go to the stars at least in many life times. Antimatter /matter engine would be the best option, or if we could harness that theoretical quantum energy that lies in every inch of space maybe. Even if we could travel to the speed of light, it would take a few months to safely accelerate to that speed (inertia forces) and the people at home would of aged 9 years when we got back from Proxima Centauri. The only solution is the Star- Trek warp drive which is contrary to known physics.

[wolvieb]

Doggone smart people... What about particle accelerators? They manage to accelerate particles at Near Light Speeds to smash into each other... The Hadron Collider for instance... I know I'm just an infant to all this. 0 experience in physics, I'm sure I'm sounding like a 3 year old with all the but, but, buts. However, if they are able to accelerate matter particles to NLS what about sending objects? I mean the way I see it, even half the speed of light, Centauri Proximus would only be 8.4 years away, isn't that less than a lifetime?

[MeteorWayne]

OK, well you realize the LHC accelerates protons...which wouldn't be a very effective robotic satellite.
A proton is so small you can't even see it. To launch an atom would require many times more energy.
To launch a pea would require billions of billions of billions times more energy.

It is a circular tunnel 8 1/2 km across with 1600 superconducting magnets weighing 27 tons each.

How do you build that in space? (because if you launched even a pea at 1/2 C it would vaporize as soon as it hit the atmosphere in addition to other bad effects)

Sorry, ain't gonna work

[origin]

OK, well you realize the LHC accelerates protons...which wouldn't be a very effective robotic satellite.
A proton is so small you can't even see it. To launch an atom would require many times more energy.
To launch a pea would require billions of billions of billions times more energy.

It is a circular tunnel 8 1/2 km across with 1600 superconducting magnets weighing 27 tons each.

How do you build that in space? (because if you launched even a pea at 1/2 C it would vaporize as soon as it hit the atmosphere in addition to other bad effects)

Sorry, ain't gonna work

I suppose we could build a RFH accelerator that is as large as say the orbit of venus and acclerate a craft to a rather hefty velocity.

2 problems though.

It would be impossible to build such a machine.

And there would be no way to slow the craft down as it zipped past Alpha Centui.

[Giulio]

Just as near-instantaneous around the world audio/video communication would have seemed impossible to people living just a few centuries ago, so too will the problems of space travel be solved, IMO. WE just can't envision it right now because we just don't "know" how it could be done yet. It took Rockets and telecommunication sattelites, video, audio, microproccessors and many, many other breakthroughs to achieve our miraculous ability to see and talk to someone on the other side of the planet in near-real time. Other breakthroughs are coming that will allow us to finally piece together a form of interstellar travel, and eventually we will pefect it too, and then they will think of it as we do any other thing we take for granted now. Put yourself in the days of Christopher Columbus. Could you have ever imagined driving down a highway at 100 mph coast to coast in a day and a half? Especially since a simple combustion engine or vulcanized rubber tires and gasoline and asphalt and shock absorbers and on and on could not even be imagined yet. He would have said, "but highways don't exist, and neither do cars". Well, wormholes don't exist, and neither do interstellar ships. After all ...Today's magic is tomorrow's technology.

[wolvieb]

Ok so we can virtually fabricate nanomachines, microcomputers that are like 1/10th the size they were 50 years ago, but we can't build a smaller particle accelerator? We create new alloys and new machines smaller more efficient, using less required fuel, and less space. Yet we can't even complete a concept? Just because something doesn't add up in numbers doesn't mean it doesn't add up. So on paper we can't figure it out. I understand ya build something- then test it, then analyze it. Sometimes though, you learn to run before you can walk...

[MeteorWayne]

Physics is a cruel taskmaster sometimes....

It's pretty clear you don't understand how a particle accelerator works or what is involved in the process.

[wolvieb]

Ah no kidding, I believe I mentioned that before

[yevaud]

Multiple problems here.

A "Mass Driver" (technically, that's what has been mentioned) wouldn't work, as the forces accelerating the ship would be extreme. If you want to depart as a thin smear af raspberry jam on the aft bulkhead, this is a good way to go about it.

Even in interstellar space, dust and gas exist, and as you increase velocity, it will hit hard. This would cause primary through tertiary cascades of radiation and energetic particles sleeting through the ship and crew. They would be dead, dead, dead.

So far, we've only been able to produce minute amounts of anti-matter (sic "Contra-Terrene matter"), and at great cost. We can't even (magnetically) contain it for very long.

It appears that at our current level of technology, the only system that might work is an Orion-type propulsion system, and I would highly advocate that it is not a good idea. Certainly not within a solar system. Efficient, yes, in a brute-force kind of way, but just plain not sensible.

Wormholes are entirely theoretical (actually hypothetical), and the ideas thrown around to make them useful to us are in the real of fantasy.

Zero-Point-Energy (derived from Quantum fluctuations which create virtual particle-anti-particle pairs) is also almost in the realm of fantasy.

So, we're basically stuck here in this solar system for the foreseeable future, and any trips beyond it will take thousands of years at low velocities. Far too low to be feasible, even with a "Generation" ship. We can't even make a device that will last several decades reliably, let alone a complex system (millions upon millions of moving or electronic parts and assemblies) that could operate reliably for thousands of years. It's even problematic if the crew could survive that long or even sustain itself.

Boy, I am cheerful and optimistic, huh?

[Giulio]

So then, the conclusion is that before we can even think about leaving our solar system. We must develope many more new technologies. Artificial gravity and Inertial dampeners, some form of reliable shielding, if not a very fast form of propulsion (Catalytic RAIRships?), than at least reliable stasis chambers and/or durable, lasting, redundant systems. So, without a quantum leap in technology, (which is not impossible since one revolutionary concept can change alot), then I believe our only alternative is virtual exploration. Nano starships, millions of them, colonizing and establishing outposts and relay stations from here to the nearest star and then slowly beyond relaying all they do and see back to earth. But even that must wait a while yet. I'm in my forties now. I'll be glad to see a Mars landing if I'm very lucky and the politicians all get abducted somehow. To think that when I was 6 years old, moon landings were almost as common as shuttle launches. You have no idea where I thought we'd be by now, and I wasn't the only one I'm sure (see; 2001:A Space Oddessy). What a waste........ And optimism is one of my virtues!

[yevaud]

Giulio, I agree. I'm an optimist in some things, this being one of them. Or perhaps "hopeful" is more accurate. I was ten when Apollo 11 landed, and was raised on a fare of Robert Heinlein and Andre Norton. We could certainly have done so much better by now.

Regrettably, most of humanity is terribly short-sighted.

[Giulio]

Issac Asimov, Larry Niven!!

[dangineer]

I suppose the best I can hope for is to see humans land on Mars, but that's even beginning to seem like a long shot now. I believe the focus should be on sending a robotic mission to another star system. That's at least technologically feasible at this point. With the electric propulsion systems currently being developed, we can slowly accelerate a small spacecraft to appreciable speeds (say 0.1c) and could begin recieving data from the other star system within a lifetime. It would have to be a flyby type mission though. But even that would be a phenomenal accomplishment. With the way automated systems are developing and scientific equipment is becomming more compact and effective, we could learn a lot from a mission like that. We could recieve the first close up pictures of another star or even a planet outside our solar system!

[JeffreyNYA]

The problem is that wormholes don't exist...

hmm, I guess I did not know it was a proven fact that they did not exist. However they have not been proven to exist either. So you may be right. Until they do exist, they really don't.

[vogon13]

Post moved

{sorry, can't have a serious post of mine languishing in the cesspool}

[Paul_Maywood]

I too am disappointed in our space faring endeavors over the last decades. We went from primitive flight in the early 1900's to landing on the moon about 65 years later. But that is a soap box speech for another thread.

My two cents here is that interstellar travel using today's technology is impractical. I don't disagree with others that there may be more exotic means of travel like the Alcubierre drive. Purely hypothetical but who knows maybe in a few hundred years someone will figure something out. Until then we are pretty much stuck.

What I get stuck on though is the whole Fermi Paradox. Where is everyone? There are so many lines of thoughts and philosophical debates as an answer but don't you think if a) interstellar travel is possible and b) we aren't alone that we should have seen/heard something? I really hope the answer isn't that we are the most intelligent beings out there. If so we are in trouble, there is no way that guy on the expressway this morning can be among the most intelligent creatures in the universe.

[mwbiggs]

I think it has been fairly well established, that unless we find ways to break the laws of physics (i.e. wormholes, etc), the only way to achieve high speeds is if you don't carry your fuel with you. This is how stars and particle accelerators get particles to near light speed. There are trillions of tons of mass involved in accelerating just a few atoms to near light speed. So solar sails augmented with powerful laser stations are the best way to accelerate interstellar spacecraft. Some of the laser stations might be stationed well outside the orbit of Pluto in order to continue the acceleration of the spacecraft. JPL has estimated 10% the speed of light may be achievable.

The problem with solar sails is spacecraft weight. It has to be lite, lite, lite. Just a few hundred kilograms would be optimal. I think the optimal solution to this is that humans don't go as humans onboard the spacecraft. We could freeze human embryos and put them in hardened radiation protected containers. Once the mini spacecraft arrives at the next solar system, it would use light from the new star, aero braking from the star's corona and probably from at least one planet's atmosphere, plus gravitation breaking to achieve orbit (this may need more study). Once the spacecraft has landed on a planet, nanobots could begin to build bigger robots and an outpost. Once sufficient medical facilities have been built, the embryos can be grown. The embroys can even arrive in later missions. In 20 years you have your first adult humans. At 10% the speed of light, the nearest stars can be reached in 40 years. Most nearby stars would take over 200 years.

[nessia]

..........Cheap and Easy Intersteller drive......

Using phase entangled hydrogen atoms,we can build a small gateway to funnel fuel for long term acceleration.
Using this low-powered 'beaming' technology....the astronauts could go home and take a break pretty
Easily......how does this teleporter work? read wikipedia entrys under Alain Aspect and phase entanglement...
of Course Bell came up with the problem first......just gather phase entangled hydrogen molecules....protons
and weave them into two doorways thru which fuel, people, and food may pass. THis quantum phase
entanglement is alot like microscopic space warp, so if you weave billions tegether u will have a gateway...
requiring no power....once the gateway is built and transported...it is a permanent crack in space/time and
can transport stuff. Forget giant fusion power plants and tons of propellants!

Space lover......Nessia